All of you here at Swingdater have obviously chosen a different "path" sexually, despite what you were taught and influenced to think about your sexuality. You are to be commended for having the courage and spirit to step in a direction away from the views of the masses. Not an easy choice at all. However, choosing a different path or course of direction does not mean we automatically know our way along that path.

I think we've just finally made the move to walk over the wish line. Since we were very young I think we all look over the fence and want to get all we can. We are taught not to do that. But jumping the fence has a lot to do with (a) availability of people and places to jump to... more fences; (b) more liberal ideas of what is acceptable to our piers; (c) being bored; (d) Wanting excitement, which is different from being bored. (e) we find out that friends are doing it... The reasons are numerous.. We want to experience more before we die.. We don't want to be left behind... With forces like these working it's no wonder that swinging is growing... Alternative lifestyles are growing and growing. We as a society are looking... and not finding things we crave in the mainstream society.. Empty nesters realize that sex is just sex and everythign has slowed down so far thatthey need something to get the blood flowing..... Getting past the jealousy aspect of swinging is the real biggy. Changing lanes for a couple of hours per month....OK but being able to watch your husband or wife with another may be the big hump...

I agree that getting past conventional moreas is a milestone but there are many reasons to jump that fence... Once the fence is jumped the big thing is getting past the jealousy...

Hear, hear...an excellent article! Thanks for sharing, twotonka. Much of what you say reflects our own understanding of what we've embarked upon here, and lends a most welcome amount of validation to my husband and I. This site has been great and has introduced us to many couples sharing the same outlook we have, some of which have even differed insofar as goals and ideals. But all are valid points of view, which is the beauty of this lifestyle--acceptance and openess, comfort in our desires, and the freedom to express them, while holding true to our love and commitment as couples. Thanks for the words you have written, and may they provide guidance and insight to those of us struggling to find solace in a like-minded community. We truly cannot wait for your next chapter:)
-T&J

First, wow, finally we have met Anonymous! I have seen your writings for most of my life! This is an honor!! Thank you for your praise and for letting us know that the article is something that adds to your solace on a journey that too many times takes couples crashing downward. It is nice when ya know you are not alone in level of thinking. Thanks for taking the time to read.

In a fast-paced society, most people often do not take the time to think things through. But considering that our health, our relationship and to some extent even our family is on the line by entering into the "lifestyle" we wanted to MAKE the time to think it all through. And what we found is what we have shared in the 4 parts of the article. So it's really for couples like you that want to make informed decisions. It sounds like you know and understand a higher level that is possible. Impressive! We wish you well Anonymous!!

Second, we want to address xplorr94248's post. Thank you also for your views. You both seem like very active members and writers and have a lot to share with people -- as well as each other! : }

You mentioned jealousy as the big thing to get past. And we understand that that is a huge hurdle beyond the fence you described. True enough. We approach jealousy just like we did all the other aspects in the article. And that is to really dig in and see what jealousy is made of and to thus see what we can do to avoid and eliminate it.

Jealousy is simply a form of fear. Usually a fear of losing something or someone. Fear is very sneaky and can slither in at any moment and attack the weakest area it can find. Rather than "deal with" or "cope" with jealousy, it seems that education and awareness are the bigger and better weapons against this. That is exactly why we encourage people to understand their sexual origins, to understand humans and true levels of sexuality. There are enough Soap Operas on TV! We would be happy to discuss in greater detail for any that are interested.

But briefly, here's the thing. Understand that we as people are far more animal in instinct than our society, the church, etc. will admit to. By knowing that your partner is attracted to others naturally, then as long as one is a stable individual, then jealousy can be kept under control. People should not delude themselves by thinking they are the only one that can give their partner great pleasure or to be found attractive by. To be jealous over that makes as much sense as being envious of sugar for being sweet!! With that outlook, pain and fear are a guarantee! As long as a person and their partner communicate very well, have total honetsy, do nothing behind the other's back that is disrespectful, then trust can florish and do quite well. Jealousy and other forms of fear are all fairly normal as long. A twinge just might be very normal. But for people that have not thought it thorough -- jealousy and other emotions can consume them.

What we are saying is that jealousy can largely be prevented. And if the relationship, communication and individuals involved are all respectful to each other's relationship then the intimacy with others can be rather bonding. It's a choice, not something that just "happens" to a person. Having a partner that communicates poorly, shows no respect, is selfish and that simply seems to not value the relationship is not really worthy of being jealous over anyway. That is not the kind of person to enter into the "lifestyle" with in the first place.

Done wisely, jealousy can be minimal and a nonfactor. Done haphazardly, painful jealousy is a near guarantee. To subject one's relationship to typical "swinging standards" is a mistake in our view. But then, that's just our view. People are different mixes so it's hard to have a "cookie cutter" way of going about this for every couple. For us personally, here's what works. We work and play at our relationship. We give and take. We build a solid fulfilling sexual relationship that we value highly. What that is then is our foundation. And then and only then are carefully selected others to become "add ons" then to that foundation. And they are not just warm bodies but quality people that compliment us as a couple and we them -- or it does not happen. Kind of like picking hybrid seed to grow something healthy with as oposed to planting what's available...

So xplorr, for us, it's not a matter of fence jumping, boredom as we get older, nor being an empty nester that views sex as just sex. And down our path, jealousy is not "the biggy" that you speak of. And it is our hope that it won't be for many others either! There are other "biggy factors" that can keep the negatives at bay. What we are sharing is intended to be "preventative medicine" for those of similar outlook and willingness to put effort into this. What you describe is more like the open wounds that can occur. Better in our view to prevent them through education, awareness and effort. Again, we do not have "the way, we have "a way" and it will rock for some and will not for others. Either way, it's a well intended sharing. Thanks xplorr for your views!

In the name of all that is good,

Twotonka

In reply to Twotonka:
Most of the we I was talking about was a collective we as society. I get emails from people all over the countr because I do participate in a few forums. It seems that for couples who have decided to try swinging the question IS jealousy. They went past what they were taught even to consider the move to the swinging lifestyle... So what I was saying was based on those discussions... Sometimes I feel like Dear Abby.

Being raised in a very strict Catholic family, I have gone though a lifetime of overcoming all of the guilt and "morality" that I was indoctrinated with since I was a child. It was actually my sexuality that made me start questioning everything about organized religion and spirituality in general.

Ever since I discovered my sexuality, I was attracted to both women and men. Being raised a Catholic by my mother, I always thought that my thoughts were sinful and dirty. I was taught that even the thought of sexual contact with another woman was a deadly sin, and that it had to be confessed in order to save my soul. I never did confess it to our parish priest, but rather just buried my feelings deeper than ever, which just caused more disgust with myself and torment. As I went through Junior High School, these repressed feelings and negative self image led to me gaining a lot of weight and becoming the target of teasing....that only led me further down the spiral of self-hate. In 8th grade, a new girl moved to Austin and was an instant outcast because her family was poor and she didn't wear the designer clothes that the majority of the kids in our upper middle-class neighborhood had, and had to present her lunch card every day to get her state-sponsored free lunch. Needless to say, we clung to each other and became instant friends....the two outcasts. We found strength in each other, saw each other's positives and found an island in each others platonic love. We were inseperable, and she even went with our family on vacations, since her parents couldn't afford to go anywhere but her grandmothers. Because of her faith in me, I was able to lose all of the "torment" weight and was in fantastic shape by the time I was a Sophomore. We were so close that we decided that we would both get a job together and ended up scooping ice cream at a local shop for the summer. Even though we were so close, I was still physically closing myself off from my feelings toward women, but at that point I was so confident in myself as a person that I allowed myself to have fantasies about women while masturbating. I was more afraid of how I would be received by Emily (I haven’t mentioned her name yet….sorry) than by my upbringing. After the summer working at the ice cream shop, we stayed on and continued working after school and on weekends. Emily’s brother could pass for 21 and would bring us wine coolers that we would drink after the shop closed. One night, I had just broken up with my boyfriend for cheating and we were sitting out back on my car. We had both had a four pack and were feeling pretty good and were talking about how men were pigs. She mentioned that it would be so much easier if we could just date. It was an offhand comment, but I asked her if she had ever been attracted to another woman, that led to talking about what it would be like to kiss a woman and the next thing I knew WE were kissing. Without realizing it my hand was caressing her cheek and she moved it to her breast. We looked at each other, wondering if the other person was about so laugh and stop the moment, but instead I asked if she wanted to go back into the shop. There, we were kissing, and I had never felt anything like it. It ended up us just touching each other though our clothes…clumsily and tentatively, but it felt so right. I was worried that things would change between us, but we only became closer. We continued experimenting….teaching each other how we liked to be touched, what brought us to the edge and how to prolong that pleasure. We also had boyfriends, but we never wanted to share what we had with them…..it was never spoken of. We were each other’s teachers and lovers, and we are still friends to this day. After that, I pretty much renounced Catholicism and felt completely free. I keep my lifestyle to myself, but not out of shame. Since then, I have looked more closely at religion in general and have decided that organized religion in general is the oldest, least productive industry in history.

That's my rant. Loved the article. When can we read more?

In reply to Darla2585:

Darla~~

What an open honest and real sharing. Thank you. Very inspiring. It seems like in a very real sense you got back in touch with what was in you naturally. It also shows what too many people seem to overlook. Sexual contact and intimate sharings can be very powerful to another's life. Not just a mere physical gratification or release. For you and Emily, you tapped into the essence it seems of what it can be for us silly humans.

Of course, it's all too typical that you had to overcome the fears cast upon you when younger. But then, that's our current society and all too many forms of religion at work. Like I said in the article, "human cogs in a big machine." It seems that you prevailed and turned the tables on it all! From one outcast to another--congratulations! I am reminded of the aging book, "Jonathan Livingston Seagull." Gulls of course are suppose to behave and act only in prescribed ways according to "The Council." Well, Jonathan blows off the "Law of the Flock" and takes flight in ways that any self respecting gull should not because, well, because it's just wrong!! Jonathan feels shame and guilt but continues his experimenting until he is seen flying at high speed and is banished. He is deemed "outcast" and sent away from the flock as a disgrace.

Let's see, the flock back on the beach is fighting over fish heads and obeying "The Law of the Flock" and Jonathan is free. He is flying high with the all too few other outcasts flying wing tip to wing tip and soaring as he was intended NOT as prescribed. Hmmm, which has made the better choice? Fish heads, squawking and status quo or being true to one's self and enjoying the gift of flying? Well, they do say that, "the gull that fly's the highest, sees the furthest." In that case, you must have a pretty good view from up there. Very happy to hear that you broke away from "the beach." You more than broke away though, you took it to another level.

Thanks for your so called "rant" you outcast! lol

May your sweet memories be many!

2Tonka

How do I know when an older woman is interested in me? Is it ok and not too much to flirt? What signs do I have to pay attention to so I notice? Should I save myself the embarrassement and just keep dreaming? What What What

In reply to youngone:

Oh Youngone, you have many questions. Questions are good! I am not sure though that I understand the context of all of your questions. Do you mean face to face or through Swingdater or what. You look to be an attractive person so you have that going for you. As I looked at your profile it lists your age at 19 and also 22. That's going to be a red flag for about anyone checking out your ad. Kinda leaves a feeling that you are making it up as you go. So I would tidy that up.

If you are looking for a relationship with an older woman, that is simply tricky. If it's the case of two different generations, the outlooks are going to tend to be vastly different, especially at your age. In 5 years you are going to have grown and changed a lot as a person. And great change is a real test for any relationship. At your age it is hard, though not impossible, to be credible in the eyes of an older woman.

If you are instead looking for a simple sexual relationship with an older woman, there are those out there that would love that in fantasy at least. Thing is, you have a lot of other single guys pushing for a woman of about any age also. Single guys on couple sites have a tough go of it often times. Perhaps a singles site or even a club that invites single men.

As to what to look for if an older woman is interested -- trust me, you'll know. Women are wonderful in so many ways and if a woman wants you to know she has an interest she's going to be letting you know. I think it's best for you to learn through trail and error but I will say that the eyes are key. They can say so very much. And if she speaks to you whether through a keyboard or verbally -- listen and hear her. Women are people, not objects. Treat a woman as a thing and well, you are going to still be asking these same questions at 89!!

Hope this helps some. Just relax and enjoy your youth and be smart! I like that you ask questions. Keep that trait up -- you'll learn a lot. Well, if you have the sense to consider what you are being told. I used to blow off so much quidance when I was younger. Be smarter than I was Weedhopper -- I mean Young One.

Good luck

2Tonka

wow, what an amazing answer to almost all my questions, thank you very much for the reply. I now somewhat understand a little more. I had someone use my name under this website to figure htings out and he switched my age from 19 to 22. ai apologize about that! I will try many different things and i will try harder looking for the mature women. I might just try swing clubs and bars and yadiyadiyah....its hard but i do understand. Thanks TahTah.....Trey

In reply to Twotonka:
Nicely put

I read both parts of your articles and found them to be very insightful.

If I may offer a few observations which may be included in Parts 3 and 4.

First, married couples usually don't just wake up one morning and decide to enter the lifestyle; from my limited experience it is a gradual process with sensitivity to all concerned. While still very new to this, our expectations go beyond sex and include friendship, companionship, and common interests. (OK, the bedroom isn't the only room in the house<LOL>)

Granted, married couples do tend to lean towards 'exclusive' relationships with another couple which sometimes becomes a tight cirle of two or three couples. So, I guess I'm proposing that at least one part of the lifestyle gravitates towards its own 'restrictions.'

This, of course, is not to diminish other ways lifestyles couples express themselves with others.

Regarding the 'politics and religion,' it may be those instutiions are view as agents of means to control societal behavior. Again, there are several ways to view this; to attempt to 'control' is an admission to a lack of control, and, politics/religion are not naturally occuring institutions - they are man made and are fallible as man's constructions.

Still, within those institutions, there are choices.

It may be couples entering into the lifestyle do so with more metaphysical concerns than rational reasons. More and more older couples are entering the lifestyle after raising kids, maintaining the rigors of career, and waking up with their partner and, yes, decide there is another part of life worth exploring together.

Others experiement with the lifestyle and find it just isn't for them.

Specific to married couples (I'm trying to limit my comments to MC's) ISO married couples, there is a tendency for 1/2 of the partnership to 'sell' the lifestyle to the other rather than let it naturally evolve. I think, 2Tonka, in a very nice way you are approaching 'ethics' in the lifestyle world. We have made an initial contact with another couple through e-mail, and, visually as well as an apparent shared work ethic, there are some common ethics which are also very attractive.

While that may sound silly to many who approach the lifestyle as a physical concern rich in fantasy, there are certainly other aspects to consider since we are discussing human beings, not objects.

Technology does allow for abuses as well as benefits and does require considerable care in how it is used. The SD seems to be the most stable and cleanly run of the lifestyles websites but caution (like protection) should not be thrown to the wind; that's another issue with married couples.

However, the ethics issue - that what I'm calling it now - is more of a matching of existing values of couples rather than creating new ones for the couples to encorporate; the latter, then, becomes one of unnatural, outside influences such as politics/religion.

'Just a few thoughts on a well-written article....

M&K

TwoTonka's provocative articles opens an issue often dissassociated with any alternative lifestyle viewed from the outside; ETHICS.

There have many historical attempts to validate alternative choices through the application of a belief or philosophy and, conversly, there have been many more attempts to invalidate through the same vehicles.

The greater question is whether or not it is ethical to sway one from an ethic to embrace another ethic? Is that not what evangelists and politicians attempt to do?

To assign human sexuality to a design within nature is correct, but, human sexuality is connected to a higher order brain function. Nature does not have ethics on its own accord but is perceived through mankind's ethical conduct (Ok, I just fused Aristotle with Aquinas) and his curatorial role.

When discussing human sexuality there is a tendency to place it within the natural world at the expense of our ability to affect that world through our intellect to our benefit.

The 'ideal' of balanced sexuality is an intellectual construct which places one in an ethical position to nature which has no ethics. 'Balance' is not a concern of nature since its dynamics are so complex; Mt. St. Helens spwed more pollutants in out atomosphere than those produced by man since he walked upright. Yet, man's concern about the environment, our sense of balance, presumes we can 'affect' a since of balance until the next 7.0 reminds us the earth beneath our feet does not move to personally balance mankind.

Ethics are a higher order value system follwed by morality, then, conventional law. One may argue ethical positions are shaped by morality but, ultimately, ethics are the starting point since they are established through reason and are slower to change.

Balanced sexuality, then, requires a personal ethic guiding the physical sexuality. When couples meet and agree to join sexually, there must be some common value (if no values can be construed as a 'value') beyond the sexual. For example, most would agree the enjoyment of sex should not involve rape, severe injury, or worst, death. Those acts are the result of no rules; like nature.

To place human sexuality in terms of the 'natural' world comes with a measure of constraints guided by our ethics which are valued by their exercise and resulting behavior.

However, it is one thing to question another's ethical compass and quite another to judge the same. Compatible couples do seem to find similar courses and headings accordingly.

M&K

There's a problematical premise in Pt. III where TT states," We discovered after doing some interesting research that 98 to 99 percent of the creatures that roam the planet are not monogamous. Sexual monogamy is virtually non-existent in nature and among human populations it has been rare until recently in terms of mankind's history."

With all due respect to TT, nature is perceived and ordered through the mind of mankind. So, to establish a statement that monogamy in nature can be quantitized when 'nature' has no response or predisposition to mankind's notion of monogamy, is a first order fallacy.

The perception of 'nature' is a construct of man. To 'order' it for understanding must include homo sapiens as a member of that order. Does a dog doing another dog in the yard have these concepts and thoughts? Of course not. They are doing, yes, what comes natural without understanding mankind's understanding of nature. Do dogs rape? If they do, then because it is natural for them to do that is this a natural consequence that TT's arguement can be extended to support rape of human women today?

The arguement from nature has been defeated over the past milleniums and is often used as a defense rather than a supporting statement to anything.

Taking TT to issue one step further in reagrds to nature, sex is designed, in nature, for one thing; reproduction.

PT.III of TT's article is very flawed. It presumes nature has a 'mind' to which mankind is subservient when convenient. Nothing could be more false. It is just the opposite; makind projects, within its limitations and constraints, its 'viewpoint' on nature to suit its own needs. Mankind, because of its higher brain function, does rationalize what it observes and uses it, politically, to justify, or condemn, behavior.

If TT's research also showed that 98% of all creatures in nature cannot fly because of nature's constraints, then how do we account for airports and the intellect that enables us to do what nature did not 'naturally' provide?

By TT's third part standards, we are no different than dogs other than being able to KNOW we are no different than dogs. If we are able to distinguish the differences, then we can, according to Aristotle, make a choice between being an animal in nature or something above that. Brain function is the difference.

'Sorry, TT, I have to bust you on this one. Enriched plutonium did not exist in nature until man made it. We have far more choices and creativity, today, than exists in nature as we perceive it.

When nature surrenders to man's idea of nature - the two dove camped out in my garage with wedding rings - you'll have a point. Unfortunately, that's not the way it works.

M&K

wow what a great article, I am not quite as articulate with my words as twotonka is, i hope you all get my drift.
When we decided to join this "lifestyle" we had just stumbled on to my wifes and mine desire to have more than one partner.(after 7 years of marriage) we had never really disscussed anything along those line before. I am not even sure how it came up but it did.
we dicided to do some research on the subject(after much conversation on how this never came up, and what we wanted)and we found that for a lot of couples this lifestye either drove a wedge into your relationship, or it brings you as a couple(providing you are a couple as we are) closer together.
i was worried in the beginning about her being jelous, as she can be a very jelous person. We decided to go and see if we could find a couple to see if this was for us. After about 2 months we did meet one couple, after the first meeting, a second was arranged and things happened, after everthing was over and they had gone home, it was like we had just got married. We couldn't get enough of each other, not in the sexual way just wanting to be with each other, talking about what happened and how exciting it was .ect.ect.
this was one of the best choices we had made as a couple, up till that point the marriage was kinda on a down grade, now and i hope for ever we are on a constant up "swing" .

c&t

In reply to ArtsyCouple:

Dearest Artsy, you make me smile, once again. You certanly seem extremely intelligent, well versed and have a strong need to establish your view as THE view. While I respect your view and outlooks, that is what they are, your views and outlooks.

Artsy, the Balanced Sexuality article was never written as the final word on anything and we made that quite clear, or so we thought. It is our views and what we have found to be true for us. True for us Artsy is not going to be true for you most likely. Using the road map analogy again, what we have found to be true for us has given us a path with a heart. A way of living and seeing life that we are very happy in. The roadmap has yes, gone far beyond the "road map" that society hands out. And we have now an understanding and a direction that works very well for us. For US. And we see no flaw in this. Your debate sounds as if you are taking aim at a highly scientific article. This is not. It is a sharing that may help or support others and their experiences. Like Ginger who posted their feelings recently.

I am not sure what works for you but hopefully something wonderful does. I have to tell you, what we wrote was intended to be something that was readable and that was still light enough to hold one's attention. Your angles and views read to me like a scientific journal...and after all of your "definitive" statements am am left unmoved. And that is not a jab. My research has shown exactly what I wrote. And while I think it is great that you have these views and outlooks, I am not in the least impressed nor convinced of your claims.

So, why you debate a personal sharing that was never meant to be the last word, I do not know? Your views are your views and what you have found to be true thus far. And if that works for you two and you two are happy------then do not change a thing!!!! The point is to be happy and to enjoy life, safely and wisely. I think you are coming at this from a far different angle---yours.

Thank you Artsy for your very finely tuned microscope opinions though. I have enjoyed them. Just do keep in mind that this article, with it's "serious flaws" has actually been of great help and support for a fair number of people that have written to us. And so, to us, the time taken to share with others has been well worth it. I am not so sure that what you write is easily accessable to a good number of people. But if it is good for you, then go with it and go with it far. I think you two sound like an amazing couple and are very good people from what I understand. Just remember my friend, there's nothing to debate here. If we had said that this is "The Way," then I think you should bring out every bit of your arsenal. But we are simply walkin' down the path with a white flag and some thoughts and views that may add to life and sexual pleasure for in love tight couples that can relate. That is all. Artsy, none of us have the same views totally. And that is why we write in a way to prevent debate. And yet, you take a stand.

I think you missed the heart of this article. Intellect is nice. But I will take heart any day over intellect. Our attempts are at a balance of heart and intellect. Again, this is what works for us and if part do work for others, awesome!!! And if parts don't work for others----like you----then PLEASE----let that bolster your own beliefs and views. I just hope that they speak to the depths of your souls and that your lives are rich no matter your view.

For us Artsy, here's out test. On the death bed someday, if we can look back at the love we shared, the rich experiences we had---many of which likely went beyond socities standards---and we have smiles on our faces because of what we learned, and what we dared to live out, then our lives will have been indeed as full as we dreamed of. I can promise you neither of us would be looking back with our current views and be stressed out because our views and or research about what we believed was "seriously flawed" -- and other terms of description that you used to state your case. LOL Pssssst, Artsy, we'll go with what we believe, "seriously flawed" as it may be. Oh to be "seriously flawed" in outlook and yet live fully,happily and perhaps adding to others live out their lives with their version of "seriously flawed" life research.

Honestly. in all your intelligence, I think your attempt went wide to the right, though impresssive and flashy. I am reminded of an outlook I learned in martial arts. If our article were represented by taking a piece of chalk and drawing a single line, it would seem that you have attempted in some instances to cut our line. A line that comes in peace and that states clearly that it is not the final word. And yet, you brought out you big "chalkboard erasure" of intellect. I suggest you simply put that down, pick up a piece of chalk and lengthen your own line rather than attempt to cut ours.

The white flag remains. I think you have wonderful intent though we remain unmoved in our views. Our line, intact.

You perhaps may have a few things to say about all this, but I hope not. I would encourage you to contact Swing Dater and write an article on your views that you seem quite passionate about. Lengthen your line...and in so doing perhaps your views will speak to others in a way ours cannot.

May you both continue to grow and enjoy life and love together!

2Tonka

In reply to ginger:

Ginger/C and T~~

Thanks for your sharing. It sounds like you two have gone about communicating, learning more about your sexuality and dared to take some careful risks. May they continue to turn out well for you both. Just remember to add on to your relationship without substituting.

Be safe, be smart, be...

2Tonka

In reply to Twotonka:
thanks for your words of encouragement, we plan on expanding and growing our relationship till we are too old to care about it,and then we will still probably still want to do it...
and i am glad to see your reply to artsycpl, i thought the same way that you did that they missed the point of the article all togther. I guess i just did have the guts to say it till now. We all have our own road maps and they all read differently, and how we travel on them is our own choices and direction. Some of us may end up in the same place in life but we all got there in a different way.

c & t

In reply to ginger:

Ginger----you are most welcome. I liked hearing what you said, "We plan on expanding and growing our relationship till we are too old to care about it,and then we will still probably still want to do it..." That is a very inspiring plan to have! Of course, it takes effort but it sounds like you two have the enthusiasm and love to make that plan a reality. May you both be smiling big at 137 with a lot of incredible memories together! You two seem to get what is possible beyond the status quo.

As for Artsy, I want to be very fair. While I do not know the female half, I am getting to know the male half of Artsy. And while we differ in how we view and communicate aspects of our origins, it's OK. I can promise you that his heart was and is in the right place. A very amazing and intelligent individual. One can learn much from this man and I certainly enjoy the workings of his mind. My response was without vengence. Simply respectfully reminding him that Balanced Sexuality is a nondefinitive sharing.

I am very glad that this article has been positive for you two and the others that have written us giving thanks and sharing their stories, concerns, etc. But that does not mean we have connected with everyone who has read it by any stretch. That's impossible. And so I do hope that Artsy does write more because he has some great views and insights. I may not agree with all of them, but my jaw may very well drop at other things that he shares. He has my full respect as a very speciual person. So, as writers, I think that Artsy and 2Tonka can both simply share what we know and what we see. And hopefully others will share their insights and perhaps go beyond. Simply put, there are a lot of ways to happiness and fulfillment. People are so different and relate differently to different authors and presentations of information.

Thanks for your support Ginger. Very much appreciated. Thankfully though, there is no battle here. This site is based on quality and I can assure you that Artsy only wants to contribute to that just as we do. We simply have two very different writing styles, some differing views and a lot of similar ones.

Anyway, enough of that stuff. Keep in touch Ginger and stay the course...it's gonna be great. Steady at the helm lad! LOL

2Tonka

In reply to Twotonka:
2Tonka.....You are a truely class act.

If I didn't give you resistence then what's the value of your position?

Well, I'm convinced.

It well may be we'll never meet in person, but, we've already 'met.'

I do have to re-affirm that which all professionals agree upon; the sexiest organ of the human body is the brain.

You can't take a picture of that. Believe me, myself and others far above me have tried.

Still, the argument 'from nature' is something we can discuss privaely. OK?

My best to you and yours,

M&K

In reply to ArtsyCouple:

Artsy

Your "resistence" was/is much appreciated! Otherwise, I would never have known how wrong you really are! lol Kidding! Besides, we'll likely meet in person? Why, because you had to go and say we may very well never meet in person. And, well, I am enjoying how wrong you can be sometimes! Oooops, sorry, there I go again. Would I really drive the distance just to be one up on ya? I think you know that answer! lol

So professionals agree on the brain being the sexiest organ of the human body. Hmmm, if that's the case your lady must be constantly telling you that you "give good brain!" I am of course unprofessional. Probably because of my beliefs in what is obvious about Nature and the large percentage of creatures that are non-monogomous without being filtered through "civilized" man's tendency to catagorize and justify, etc. lol It's my own fault really! Oh but yes, let's do discuss this between you and I. I promise to go easy on ya...lol Email me when you get a chance M.

Please say hello to the lady of the house and tell her to hang in there with you!! ; ) You'll eventually catch on...

2T

2Tonka....<LOL>

Yes, believe me, I have been wrong in big ways.

But, like I said, the argument from nature is not an issue of me being wrong, but Aristotle, Aquinas, Kant, etc....I err on the side of reason and reason is not the final word, of course.

I will advance to you I read part 4 and have no problems with it.

The brain is the sexiest organ. It, presumably, controls the physical stuff when we're asleep at the wheel blaming nature for man's choices...<LOL>

But, aside from that, it's your intellect that intrigues me. You have contributed to this website in spectacular form raising the bar of discussion and provocation far above other websites I've checked out. But, feel free to consider the source of this exaltation...<LOL>

Basically, I think sexuality is not a matter of 'balance' but of an ongoing dynamic where the scales are a complete blurr. Your snapshot for understanding, however, is completely valid and appropriate.

As you know, we can formulate an archetype of anything. We can also attempt to squeeze, at our convenience, everything into those archetypes.

But, if you bend a string on your guitar and slurr a note, think about the notation which represents that. It doesn't reflect 'touch' or tonality regarding the degree to which the string is bent. The same is true of human sexuality; it just can't be as neat a package in your argument from nature presents. I limit the scope of my criticism to that one issue only.

That's how I view what you've so eloquently written. It's simply the intonation that we differ upon. The harmonics are there.

Whether sex is the main course or the desert cart remains the choice of those who choose to serve or be served. It does, at some point, come down to human, cognizant choice; not nature. Who, afterall, assigned rules to nature? Man or nature? Nature has no morality, man does. Therein is the problem. To appeal to nature's example, absent of morality, as a guiding beacon for morality is just absurd.

Monogamy in the human experience is a very recent moral imperative. Within civilized societies where lineage and property disposition are important, the parentage of children is important. But, fidelity, and all that comes with it as well as the consequences in its absence, becomes a moot point when 'recreational sex' is the issue.

Sex, according your argument from nature, has only one purpose; reproduction. In your Part 3, however, you combine nature's goal with mankind's goal without giving mankind the benefit of sex as a simple pleasure, and, recently, independent from nature's goal for all organisms.

True, monogamy is a man-made construct. Nature does not abide by such abstrations and concepts. To argue man is not 'natually' monogamous because monogamy is not in nature's interest presents the same problem; nature doesn't have monogamy because it favors a benefical gene pool for species survival, not pleasure.

So, if your argument comes from nature as not being monogamous for species reproduction and survival, then why are we using 'protection' and birth control to satisfy our pleasure? Is this advancement of the humans? I don't know. You appealed to nature.

As for my lady's take on this, well, I guess she enjoys her choices up to now. Does she understand all this? You'll have to ask her.

Ok, I just asked her...."Brains trump brawn any time."

Keep in mind, she's a blonde...<LOL>.....

M&K

BTW, 2Tonka, check out SD's Viagra posting.....If you don't take my argument to heart on its merits, or lack thereof, check out the scientific finding about the 'brain' being the thing, not the crotch...<LOL>

My Best To You And Yours,

M&K

In reply to ArtsyCouple:

Wow, what are we gonna do with you?? Were you on the debate team??? lol Uncle, I say!! Your conclusions of what you feel Balanced Sexuality says may be harmonic, per your guitar example, but Artsy, I am in an open tuning that seems to be throwing you off a smidge. I never made the claim that Nature is only about creating offspring. I also refer to recreation, though lightly. We edited this 4 part article down to be more "user friendly" as opposed to the complete and thorough text on sexuality. It's targeted for this particular audience. And again, the main point of that is to support the urges that others may have for someone besides their significant other.

I certainly do not disagree with the brain being the sexiest organ--and the rest falls in line after that---in most cases.

What time are you guys coming over anyway???

Peace,

2Tonka

In reply to Twotonka:
2Tonka, again, I can see your point.

To bring this back into its proper context, the 'nature' thing was a small part of, yes, a larger picture which is a solid point of view.

While it is your article - and one of the best I've read online - and it accomplishes exactly what your authorship intended, I do think you made it unnecessarily vulnerable to those whose equally valid p.o.v. holds that there is nature and the 'unnatural.' The tone of your article was NOT argumentative, rather, expository and, again, that is a credit to you. But to issue an ancient argument from nature, however peripheral, changes the tone.

Ok, I'll do a 'paper' and give you a few shots over my bow....<G>

As an FYI, I really had never considered 'balanced sexuality' until reading your piece.

Great job!!!!

'm'

In reply to Twotonka:
"And again, the main point of that is to support the urges that others may have for someone besides their significant other."

Yes, I agree with you. Your 'support' is an intellectual support which I hope many will find useful.

'm'

How true you ring, TwoTonka. Thanks for your post. We're new to this site, but your words help solidify much of what we've already discussed. We apologize for our "anonymity" but we're still in the process of becoming "comfortable" with this lifestyle we've chosen, but wanted to at least extend a big THANKS to you. We meet our first couple from here tomorrow. Are there any more parts to look forward to??? Any advice for us newbies????

-Kimmie

let me say this...as far as the jealousy goes. I was always a very jealous guy. I didnt want a woman I was involved with talking to any other men, let alone having any sort of physical contact. I met the love of my life a couple of years ago and things changed. We had been together for about 8 months and were in a bar one night. I jokingly asked if she would like to go to a strip club. She was pounding her drink and calling a cab before I could get the words out of my mouth. She and I had always had the best sex, I mean I am 30 years old and have been with my share women but this was just incredible. The girls at the club were all over her and she was having a blast. We went home and she confessed her love of women to me and I could understand...women are beautiful, amazing creatures. She said she wanted to bring one home and that watching me with another woman woudl drive her crazy (in a good way) That happened a few times and then one night we were at a party and something in me just changed. We back to our house with another couple and had an all out foursome. It made me so hot seeing her being please by other people. We still do not do anything where we arent in teh same room and we dont know if we ever will. The thril for us is watching the other. I know that she is the love of my life, I am extremely confident in that fact. We are getting married in August. What I am saying is that until I truly was in a relationship where I was madly in love and felt that love in return I was a very jealous man, but now...On the occasion where we do meet another couple, woman or man I look forward to experiencing new parts of life with her. I am going to get old with her, She is going to be teh mother of my children...and she will be the one to plan my funeral ( I am sure I will go first, I have lived a hard life...wayyyy too much partying) I love her and I love seeing her being satisfied. Jealousy no longer enters into the picture for me, It is not neccessary. Sorry we have no pics posted, she is a fourth grade teacher and is a little paranoid about the wrong people seeing them and having knowedge of our lifestyle.